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Holy Edesu SocialistState
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PostSubject: An enormous complaint   Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:41 pm

Our military-industrial complexes are out of control. I don't mean in a fun way; it's fucking ridiculous. Here's one quote.

Oscalantine wrote:
Oscalantine Military



Oscalantine Military is divided into four main parts: Airforce, Navy, Army, and UCV

Expenditures : $1.759 Trillion (25% of nation's GDP)

You all realize that's at Soviet Union levels, 25%? That will strangle your economy to death. Feel free to RP that, but you can't also be an economic powerhouse. Hell, you can't even be first-world.

At least Osc is up-front with his folly. Let's decode the others. Considering income tax is where government get the lion's share of their revenue, and that the rest is roughly balanced out by transfer payments, let's sloppily estimate that income tax percent equals fraction of economy that is government-owned. Then let's calculate other nations.

HESS: 8%
UPRR: 19.95%
UKKI: 30.03% (Remember, he's quite socialist.)
UFPCO: 16.43%
DSIR: 38%

At this rate the sick man of Tiberiam, Edes, will be the only one with an economy.

This is not hyperbole. Have your military spending exceed 15% of GDP, and it will really hurt your economy. At 25%, you're looking at the USSR. You can always devote 90% of your economy to the military during total war, but that should NEVER be your long-term plan.

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PostSubject: Re: An enormous complaint   Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:32 pm

That's what the industry budget is for. Making money.

EDIT: Also I believe the "economy" pie chart calculates how much of the economy is government-owned (public) or privately owned.

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PostSubject: Re: An enormous complaint   Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:04 am

Ahh. I'll use that, then. I shall assign the 26% of my economy not currently devoted to "government spending" in NS's eyes wholly to normal econ stuff: farms, factories, refineries. My full economy obviously derives funding from the other areas like the military, administration, education, health, and other social policies; just more subtly.

Let's rewrite my list. Although the NS pie chart does not truly reflect your nation's distribution of government ownership, I'll use it below.

The Military Machine's Share of your GDP
HESS: 5.92% (That's below Jordanian levels. Very manageable.)
UPRR: 26.25% (That's Soviet levels in the 1980s. That means stagnation if you're very lucky.)
UKKI: 18.81% (That's Soviet levels in the 1970s. Don't expect any economic growth anytime soon.)
Oscalantine: 9.61% (That's Oman. You should consider slashing your military if you want to prioritize your economy, but it's acceptable.)
UFPCO: 5.58% (That's Iraqi levels. You're fine.)
DSIR: 16.34% (Not as questionable as KI, but still questionable.)

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PostSubject: Re: An enormous complaint   Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:29 am

Damn. NSG statistics don't match NSE statistics. NS itself, when coupled with the NSE GDP, says Osc has a $1.07T military. Not too shabby.

NSE says Osc has a #3.32T military, which is absurdly high. More importantly, these figures aren't remotely close. What to do...?

Osc, please mandate how I should calculate military budget. I assume it's just NSE.... Wait, that's easy. NSE military budget/NSE GDP

Why didn't I think of that sooner. Third time's the charm, right?

The Military Machine's Share of your GDP
HESS: 7.70% (That's uncomfortably high, but definitely feasible.)
UPRR: 20.58% (That's Soviet levels in the 1970s. Don't expect any economic growth anytime soon.)
UKKI: 29.59% (That's beyond Soviet levels in the 1980s. Your economy is dying.)
Oscalantine: 29.78% (That's beyond Soviet levels in the 1980s. Your economy is dying.)
UFPCO: 17.87% (The USSR in the early 1970s. Stagnation is extremely likely.)
DSIR: 37.52% (WW1 France? WTF? Your nation strikes fear into your enemies... and your own domestic financial investors. Third your military budget. Doctor's orders.)

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PostSubject: Re: An enormous complaint   Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:03 am

Allow me to expand this to a simple chart. I would appreciate SoC backing, ideally a rule.


The Military Machine's Share of your GDP: How much is bad.
0-5%: Your economy is doing great. No worries.
5-10%: Your economy will grow at a nice rate, just not as much as if it were under 5%. Worry little.
10-15%: Your military spending is alarmingly high, and it will weaken your economy. Worry a little.
15-20%: Your military spending is too high, and stagnation is near-guaranteed.
20-25%: Your military spending is far too high, and economic output will e'er so slowly decrease.
Over 30%: Your military spending is absurdly high. People are going hungry. Keep this up for longer than a few years, and the Proletariat is starving. Know what happens when people are on the verge of starvation for year after year?

Absolute chaos. Also your regime ends. If you're lucky you'll get one of these people.

These people would be unlucky.

These are the worst case scenarios.

You get my drift.

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PostSubject: Re: An enormous complaint   Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:04 am

XDDDDD

you are quite right. The way that NSeconomy calculates military budget is pretty ridiculous.

However, you have to also admit that Tiberiam RP itself is ridiculous. We have war pretty much every other month, not to mention all those technological advances that we achieved only in short period of time. In that sense, the military budget is somewhat where it is expected to be... I mean... who fields 20 aircraft carriers? With 30% budget, we got away with it.

The problem with this is that if I am to reset the budget, it will only cause more complexity and confusion. What we can do is to reduce those numbers to more real fitting... divide by 10 has been so far been effective in doing just that. However, % of budgets has been... more than ridiculous, I must admit. And although I probably have a good reason to explain this (like Oscal government's only reason for existing is to protect its member companies), but some of us are really not all that stellar with explanation.

Regardless...

I do know that this is a problem, but fixing it isn't within my ability to do so, because of sheer ridicule of it all. I have to assume that when the other aspect of government is down... like road needs repairs... the governments take off from defense budget to fit its needs. I guess that will explain how countries in Tiberiam seems to have inexhaustible ability to raise funds to do whatever they want, since you can simply collect emergency taxes during actual wartime.


If you have any good ideas... feel free to share. So far, I feel like it is alright... but I must admit I will have difficult time assigning where those extra assets will go.

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Management Head of Programming - Head Lesana Victoria Melcoba
Management Head of Maintenance - Head George Alexander Kim

Military Manager of Navy - Fleet Admiral Valarie Esinstall Kwon
Military Manager of Army - General Judiciary Jimmy Thomas Lee
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PostSubject: Re: An enormous complaint   Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:10 am

I know I'm doing a tirade, but I honestly think Oscalantine is most on the chopping block. Autocrats LOVE bloated military budgets, but why would a bunch of corporations want THE military machine of the world? It's not like you need them for defense.

Wait.

No.

Oh Shit. Fuck No.

Said corporations would use the military machine to seize whatever resource or market share is desired.

Now that Isis absent or totally isolationist, I have a feeling that Oscalantine will be significantly more active.

This does not bode well for me.

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PostSubject: Re: An enormous complaint   Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:18 am

XDDDDD

Three words: Military Industry Complex.

Companies WANT to see more war. Here's at least what my MAJOR companies will gain from all this...

NexInc: CASH. Oscal military is heavy IT, high-tech military machine. Even the most crude artillery have computerized targeting system, not to mention usually our "air force" consist of nothing more than bunch of UAVS. Corporate Army, the most active military in Oscal, is basically running cyborgs with what technology that they carry. IT production and maintenance will skyrocket.

Rhombiom: Rhombiom focuses on heavy industry and chemical production. This means that any time that there is war, its industry will have to overclock to meet the demands. This is especially the case ever since Rhombiom has been more involved in exports. Anytime there is war, SOMEHOW, SOMEWAY, Rhombiom profits. Not to mention Rhombiom is one company that will gain most whenever Oscal takes a territory.

Daz: obviously medic's favorite client. Daz focuses on medication, which means that it will definitely profit from having lot of wounded in the world. Daz also has monopoly on cigarettes in Oscal, which means that stress-filled population wanting to smoke is always good for business. Daz also has alright automobile industry, so those workers can also get into military production lines and earn a profit.

Xia: mostly a weapons group... MIC to the max. They will probably benefit A LOT from war.



The reason why Oscal didn't wanted to fight is because of balance of power. They did not need to dirty their hands when EU and GWA was duking each other every other year. That alone was profit for them to sell in all sides. However, with major powers gone, Oscal needs to make its own war markets... so... I guess Oscal will DEFINITELY be more active than before ^^

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Management Head of Technology - Head Tony Max Kiwiki
Management Head of Programming - Head Lesana Victoria Melcoba
Management Head of Maintenance - Head George Alexander Kim

Military Manager of Navy - Fleet Admiral Valarie Esinstall Kwon
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PostSubject: Re: An enormous complaint   Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:21 am

Very good argument. My counterargument is one number.

30%

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PostSubject: Re: An enormous complaint   Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:55 am

XDDDDDD

You get my point, though. Just because I choose to continue to support military (my only other choice in most instances is to slash the budget to 0% altogether...) shouldn't get this number... yet it does.

Again, I am up for simple calculation change. However, that isn't going to fit into our new motto of "simple of beautiful" that we want for New Tiberiam RP. So... I say we roll with it until we figure out what to do with this... again, we have a problem with people warring too much anyways... that needs to be fixed before I can do something about a budget (seriously? budget actually matches our usual military spending. We war CONSTANTLY, unlike in RL. During cold war and interwar eras, didn't we, too, have ridiculous military budget in RL?)

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Management Head of Technology - Head Tony Max Kiwiki
Management Head of Programming - Head Lesana Victoria Melcoba
Management Head of Maintenance - Head George Alexander Kim

Military Manager of Navy - Fleet Admiral Valarie Esinstall Kwon
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PostSubject: Re: An enormous complaint   Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:04 am

You put Mao Zedong as worst case scenario?

Last I checked, Red China is still around and doing better then ever.

EDIT: Also I'd like some more reasoning for this. Why exactly would a 30% military budget be so chaotic, if you are still generating a positive income each year?

EDIT 2: According to NSEconomy I still generate about a $435 billion profit.

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PostSubject: Re: An enormous complaint   Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:07 am

You misunderstand, Ras. A 30% military budget s fine. A 100% military budget is fine. A 30% military share of your GDP will kill your economy. This ain't the middle ages; you can't do that and expect to have a competitive economy.

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PostSubject: Re: An enormous complaint   Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:09 am

Also the pictures above are as follows, if any of you care.
French Revolution, specifically Bastille storming
Best case scenarios: Lenin, Trotsky, Luxemburg
Unlucky: Napoleon, Mao (He wasn't the best ruler.)
Worst: Stalin, Marat
Revolutions tend to generate autocrats.

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PostSubject: Re: An enormous complaint   Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:20 pm

Erm...

EEE, I will give you more complex statement, but let me summarize what I am about to say...

The Executor of Oscalantine has SO much power that he is above the law. The only thing that the Executor cannot superceede is Melcoba Family according to the Oscalantine constitution. To him, laws and acts passed by the legislative branch is nothing more than a recommendation. Budget plan? As if. He can divert cash flow from one place to another so fast that it isn't even funny. All he has to do in order to bolster one budget is to call up his secretary and tell her to do two things: tell the financial branch to make necessary changes and notify the legislative branch. The Executor can micromanage the economy monthly or even daily. He can collect taxes on the go if he so wishes, and he can simply scrap projects whenever he sees fit. You obviously underestimate the Executor's powers. When the Executor said "I am THE economy of Oscalantine," he meant it.

And also keep in mind that the Executor's power doesn't come from the law per se. His power comes from direct authority of Melcoba Family as well as his company. Charisma also helps, too. These people are bred individuals who knows the Oscalantine economy in and out, and has been trained since elementary years to understand Oscalantine inside and out. They are scary folks... all these Executor-to-be's.

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Management Head of Programming - Head Lesana Victoria Melcoba
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PostSubject: Re: An enormous complaint   Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:22 pm

O.o...

it is purely decision by the issue. Most of the issues that I got was "do or die" scenario where I either raise my damn military budget or destroy military altogether... damn NationStates...

But, I can explain the 30% (thankfully)...

1. How Oscalantine government earns money

Firstly, the Oscalantine government serves one true purpose, really: to serve the needs of the member companies. Member companies pay a financial fee and overall support the government. The member companies also have dealings with Oslose Foundation (Osc's only state-run company) in order to get contracts to produce any "domestic" products through automated factories. Those two fundings and a bit of taxes here and there from the masses are what keeps Oscalantine going in income-wise.

While this doesn't seem like much, Oscal has a rule which puts tariff in non-domestic products (mainly due to lobbying of the member companies), and as such, in order to not get out-performed by other member companies, the companies in Oscalantine try to produce their products domestically. Another rule is set so that in Oscalantine, the manufacture sector will only go through under the watch of Oslose Foundation. In other words, government either has to MAKE your product or pay a fee so that you can produce it through other routes in order for the product to be marked "domestic." Without being marked domestic, the goods are subjected to "taxing" through sales tax for the consumers. So... either way, all goods made in Osc profits the government in certain extent. And seeing as how Osc's citizens has quite a bit of their income to spend (remember there are no income taxes... only taxed made through member companies), the member companies will fork up quite a bit of cash in order to dominate the domestic market. This, alongside heafty sum of cash from membership fees, it also does Oscalantine much good.

Another factor to consider is politics. Political parties of Oscalantine is... well companies. They will therefore finance their own political leader in order to influence Oscalantine policies... economic policies, to be more specific. (In the end, these rules are mostly set by the Executor, who is in turn influenced by the company that he represents.) This makes political game REALLY competitive and expensive. And who profits from these spending? Government. This is yet another way for government to gather profit from these political workings.


2. What Oscalantine government spends

Oscalantine REALLY only spends government funding in three sources: military, education, and public maintenance. Education is probably the ONLY welfare that Oscalantine provides for its populous… if you want to call that a welfare. Oscalantine citizens are mandated into mandatory highschool public education. It starts from elementary school to high school, and it ends. College is ONLY for the most wealthy or most gifted, and all of them are privately owned. School lunches are not free, but it isn’t totally expensive. The lunch is paid third by a government and third by the companies, so the citizens must pay a third for lunch program. School materials are usually provided for, and teachers are respected as ONLY class of citizen with government-provided welfare system after they retire. So that’s where the education budget goes. High schools are also not linked towards gearing students for higher education learning experience as much as teaching them the skill needed to get into the job market. High school provides general education for those that do not have a specific interest, but those with special interests or gifts are often taken into company-owned private high schools to learn their trade to be sent straight into the job market. Majority of these private high schools are funded by the companies.

Public maintenance is little more than transportation, public construction, and electricity. Other areas of the public sector have been basically privatized with government participating just a bit into the business to spice up the competition. For instance, the postal service in Oscalantine has been divided into several companies, who all try to control the market. Meanwhile, government of Oscalantine usually stands back with its own publically owned company that sends posts to hard-to-reach areas in the rural region, although recently private companies have been making their way into those areas. Oscal’s many public companies have “designed to fail” system. Oscalantine never bails out the public companies. They are made with protocols to eventually become bankrupt and file away its assets. This is to ensure gradual transition from public works to privatized works. One of the prime examples of this “designed to fail” companies in Oscalantine that has served its job is water filtration. It has come to a point where either the major non-profit organizations or the small companies have taken over nearly 90% of the country’s water filtration needs in Oscalantine that the government simply decided to sell the public company’s assets. Another example is banks. Oscalantine no longer has national bank. The major companies have their own banking firm while Nexus Incorporated has won the right to control the only recognized monetary value in Oscalantine, the Nexus Credit. Daz Group has covered much of the failsafe procedures with its massive insurance company. Now all the member companies are enrolled into “too-big-to-fail” insurance service that Dazi Insurance Firm has created. It is actually in the works of becoming a law for all member companies to be part of this service. Regardless, the public maintenance is therefore divided into automated factories maintenance and road construction, along with few works. However, in most cases the government has given property rights to the companies, who do whatever they want with the cities. While most Encrypted Cities are still under government’s control, two of are taken from military funding (Darbanian Port and Stragian Fortres), two of the major cities are corporate-owned (Bael and Rhombiom Corporation), one is run by the non-profit organization (Silios), which leaves only two of the major cities with need for maintenance in this category. Many of the other smaller cities are run in this manner. Even roads are usually for major highways, while leaving urban roads to be constructed by either non-profit organization or companies with interest to expand this land.

This leaves the military, which is well known. Although keep in mind that military budget is also used to partly maintain the two Encrypted cities as well as keeping the automated factories in line. It is also used for education programs that happen in military schools as well, which is not privatized.


Conclusion

Oscalantine has a weird system of non-profit organization and companies that has taken over much of the government activities. Oscalantine has a system of nearly no income tax (discussed earlier that the supposed 96% of the income tax taken is actually a made-up calculation of member companies paying on behalf of the income tax), and thus they can freely spend their credit in wherever possible. Also the speedy transaction of credit exchange allows for multiple specialized workers for odd jobs. The capital flows like well-managed pipe system in Oscalantine, funneling monies in and out of various organizations. Organizing companies or non-profit organization is practically free in Oscalantine. You must, of course, register for them in local government offices. The member companies are also very lax in allowing these smaller companies and non-profit organization to grow, as they do the nitty-gritty work of member companies. Anyone with a right mind can create any organization in Oscalantine, and hence the reason why religious organization in Oscalantine has such power.

While privatization has been well-underway, it is also by no means that Oscalantine government does not maintain centralized rule. Keep in mind that to the Executor, rules are RECOMMENDED list of things that he should keep aware of. He can change the budget on the go, and can manage assets accordingly. Should there be an issue in the public sector, diverting military budget to public works budget isn’t even a work for the Executor. Creating extra branch of government for the sake of temporary relief is simply calling his lead secretary to make it so. He can simply make a city on the go by diverting funds from other places.

All in all… you forgot TWO important thing about Oscalantine: EVERYTHING in Oscalantine is privatized, and the Executor controls ABSOLUTELY and without restraint. Budget plans for 30% dedication to military? It is written in paper to make things look pretty. In reality, it varies from time to time. The massive amount of power that the Executor holds allows him to practically micromanage the governmental assets. He can, at any time, call for a meeting to rearrange this month’s capital inflow to ensure that funds are diverted in the right way. If the paper seems funny, he simply scraps the entire branch and makes a new one. Politicians and bureaucrats’ salary is decided almost like a part timer… and it solely depends on the Executor’s mood. How much company must pay to stay within the member company status in Oscalantine can change in a fly depending on the Executor’s thoughts. In short, the Executor controls SO MUCH of the Oscalantine’s economy that it isn’t even funny. ^^

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CEO of Oscalantine: Executor Nathanial Nestor Kwon

Management Head of Technology - Head Tony Max Kiwiki
Management Head of Programming - Head Lesana Victoria Melcoba
Management Head of Maintenance - Head George Alexander Kim

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Military Manager of Army - General Judiciary Jimmy Thomas Lee
Military Manager of Airspace - [vacant]
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PostSubject: Re: An enormous complaint   Tue Jul 05, 2011 5:23 pm

Troll comment below, leave it for teh lulz pls.
Spoiler:
 
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PostSubject: Re: An enormous complaint   Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:45 pm

Holy Edesu SocialistState wrote:
You misunderstand, Ras. A 30% military budget s fine. A 100% military budget is fine. A 30% military share of your GDP will kill your economy. This ain't the middle ages; you can't do that and expect to have a competitive economy.

If 30% of my GDP goes to military, then like 15% goes to commerce/industry. That's plenty to generate a competitive economy.

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PostSubject: Re: An enormous complaint   Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:56 pm

[Sigh]

Osc, your country is undoubtedly the weirdest in Tiberiam. Your remarkably thorough explanation of said weirdness has caused be to withdraw my complaint regarding Oscalantine. Your people aren't starving en masse, but your military budget is still bloated as hell.

I still recommend my rule regarding the military's share of one's GDP.

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PostSubject: Re: An enormous complaint   Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:12 pm

Sounds like you're scared.
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PostSubject: Re: An enormous complaint   Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:16 pm

Rasvidi wrote:
Holy Edesu SocialistState wrote:
You misunderstand, Ras. A 30% military budget s fine. A 100% military budget is fine. A 30% military share of your GDP will kill your economy. This ain't the middle ages; you can't do that and expect to have a competitive economy.
If 30% of my GDP goes to military, then like 15% goes to commerce/industry. That's plenty to generate a competitive economy.
No, 15% to both industry and commerce is pathetic. You want that to be over half your economy, usually well over two-thirds.

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PostSubject: Re: An enormous complaint   Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:50 pm

Actually that would kill any decent economy. You want over half of your economy to be invested in private enterprise for a truly competitive economy, and not in any government program.

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PostSubject: Re: An enormous complaint   Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:27 pm

Oh, you're refer to government budgeting. I thought you meant the economy at large. Industry and commerce are the foundation of any economy. I thought you were advocating an economy based off of... I don't know what.

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PostSubject: Re: An enormous complaint   Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:12 pm

Ugh not even sure what I was trying to say, myself. I've been dehydrated for the better part of 24 hours, it's only about 30 celsius outside but there's 60% humidity and my apartment doesn't have great ventilation, so it feels more like 40 in here.

Canadian summer sucks. And it's supposed to get hotter tomorrow and more humid tomorrow (thunderstorms, so like 80% humidity all fucking day with 35 celsius). It's friggen brutal and it usually gets even hotter then this in early August. At least it's not hard to keep your home warm in winter, in summer though there's no relief.

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PostSubject: Re: An enormous complaint   Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:52 pm

No problem. I can assure you my list of faux pases (Don't know French grammar) greatly exceeds yours.

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PostSubject: Re: An enormous complaint   Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:39 pm

Donkholme wrote:
Troll comment below, leave it for teh lulz pls.
Spoiler:
 

^^

Yep. That's how SoC operates in Tiberiam. I just somehow pop up and say "BREAKING NEWZ!!" and surprise everyone with weirdness ^^


That's why information is OH SO important in Oscalantine. Also the reason why Oscal isn't exactly the most optimal place for export unless you know what you are doing... so I would have to think that many companies will have to have some sort of benefactor to help along the way ^^

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